By TSM
More to come later, but multiple reports, including Bob McCown reading a statement online have confirmed that Gregg Zaun has been terminated by Rogers for bad behaviour. This is the first major firing to occur in the latest round of bad acts vs. female employees in Canada and in sports in the post Harvey Weinstein era.
Much more to come later
Jonah
Edits:
Shi Davidi has a story on firing:
“Zaun is the first person since implicated from a sports world seeking to evolve from the pervasive machismo that has been accepted as part of the culture for decades.”
Steve Buffery took an odd stance on Twitter and was greeted with an appropriate response, in my opinion:
‘Gregg Zaun’ is a very bad hill to die on.
— Glenallen Chill (@glenallenchill) December 1, 2017
Dean Blundell, former Rogers employee did not hold back:
“What I do know is Unofficially several people from Sportsnet have cited Zaun’s inappropriate use of company email as proof of serial sexual misconduct in the workplace. Rogers investigated and fuck you very much. Doneski.
If you’ve met Greg you probably wouldn’t want him helping your kids with their homework and I don’t expect him to split the atom in forced retirement. He’s EXACTLY the kind meatball that would be thick enough to use his Sportsnet account to tell chicks about his throbbing desire to swing the big stick. I have no Idea what was in the emails btw but you get the point.”
Others are chiming in with more personal experiences.
It turned out to be a graphically-worded invitation to essentially, an orgy. It had specific rules: no social media (what happens here, stays here), no significant others, cheaters welcome, “intoxication is not optional”, and more.
— Katie Lawrence Balloch (@BlueJayGal) December 1, 2017
and yet more, inclduing from south of the border
Zaun. I’m not sure what you want me to say. Guy should be run out of the network if his behavior was inappropriate to female staffers and made them uncomfortable. Have never met him. Don’t know him at all.
— Richard Deitsch (@richarddeitsch) December 1, 2017
Many have been asking when the #MeToo movement would hit sports. The first domino has fallen. Can only imagine the fitful sleep of all the perpetrators out there who have, up until now, enjoyed the safety of an industry long overdo for a reckoning. https://t.co/wQ11nGtnVR
— Sarah Spain (@SarahSpain) December 1, 2017
So crazy and unexpected that a guy who has made comical hyper-masculinity his brand was a sexual predator. https://t.co/iQoTsRmD2K via @HardballTalk
— Craig Calcaterra (@craigcalcaterra) December 1, 2017
Mike: Jonah is on West Coast time so I’ll take the morning update shift. Here are a couple more tweets of note, first from Kayla Grey of TSN, the only woman in Toronto sports to speak up:
This is only the beginning
— Kayla Grey (@Kayla_Grey) December 1, 2017
In addition to the tweet cited above, Steve Buffery also took a crack at the argument that social media should use the same standards as courts of law:
There's no defending yourself anymore. If you're accused of something now, you're automatically guilty. Twitter goes on a feeding frenzy. There's no innocent until proven guilty on social media.
— steve buffery (@Beezersun) December 1, 2017
Marcus Stroman has been quiet so far but JP Arencibia is enjoying his time in the spotlight:
I love Canada 🙏🏻 https://t.co/jY4VEAgpYe
— Jp Arencibia (@jparencibia9) December 1, 2017
Sports Illustrated picked up the story and tweeted it out to their 1.7 million followers
https://twitter.com/SInow/status/936418349684322304
The only Sportsnet employee I can find with anything to say on the matter is this:
https://twitter.com/meyer_lucas/status/936401144154243072
Former employee Dean Blundell has some insight into why things have been quiet:
https://twitter.com/ItsDeanBlundell/status/936402548042248193
As for the papers, The Star has a brief summary with no additional information. The Sun story includes the infamous 2012 tweet as well as some interesting comments from readers, such as “That’s ridiculous. He didn’t grope anyone, touch or name anyone in person. In this overly politically correct fishbowl world of ours, no one is safe from the predatory whims of the gentried elites who want to tell us how to live our lives, think and act.”
The most comprehensive report comes from Canadian Press, which includes the news that Zaun has been pulled as a speaker from a charity event in February.
More as the rest of the story unfolds …
Commentary:
Mike: This adds one more negative PR log to the smouldering fire that has been the Jays’ off-season. The new Fan Engagement department has its work cut out.
“Wow, this is stunning,” said nobody who is even remotely familiar with Gregg Zaun
I once made a comment about Zaun’s behaviour that was deleted by the people that run this blog…good to be vindicated and not at all shocking. It will be amusing to watch Jamie Campbell and other prominent personalities at Sportsnet deny knowing anything about Zaun behaviour towards women. Zaun didn’t go out drinking alone…
Good for Rogers acting fast on this.
Back when I used to live in Toronto, I would frequent Real Sports. It’s one heck of a nice place to watch a sporting event.
I dated one of the servers there, and became friends with many others through her. It was an open secret that Gregg would roll in there and act in ways that would cause most regular patrons to be removed.
I don’t know the specifics of his harassment or what led to his dismissal, but unfortunately I’m not shocked.
I look forward to seeing what JP Arencibia and Marcus Stroman have to say about this.
https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/936390789667741698
Don’t think this is a mere wisecrack from noted lunatic Keith Olbermann, he knew something we don’t here.
Other industry insiders like Dean Blundell and Jenn Smith (writer @SN_mlb @BtBScore & @BProToronto) are saying this is very unsurprising and Zaun’s behaviour was widely known.
@Justin.
Can you post links to Dean and Jenn’s comments? Dean blocked me and I don’t know Jenn.
FYI, Olbermann is close with Dirk Hayhurst, which is why he would know Gregg Zaun stories.
I will miss his frank commentary. Agree or disagree (and | have been in both camps) his refusal to “parrot the company line” in this era of corporate ownership; was refreshing.
The bottom line however, is that such behaviour is unacceptable and cannot be ignored.
@ McIvor…
Trust you to make this about yourself. Disappointing, but not surprising.
Speaking of vindication (and the “facts” which you have previously referenced so frequently) I am still waiting for your proof of the “confirmation” you claim exists; that Bob Elliott was wrong in his column about how Roy Halladay not being hired by the Jays.
You have previously denounced TSM and proclaimed to us all that you were “done with this post”. Pity you weren’t true to your word.
Why is it everybody ‘in the loop'(male and female) suddenly comes forward with comments after the excrement hits the rotating blades – It can’t be that they wanted to protect Zauns ‘good name’ –
Guess he’ll be drowning his sorrows at Hemingway’s 🙂
That sucks. For me, he was/is must listen. I learned a lot about baseball from Zaun and like his style. He also is very involved with charitable work. Next years Blue Jay broadcasts will probably be less entertaining/informative for this viewer.
Having said that. If he has made any illegal transgressions, then he obviously must be held to task.
Regarding the lack of comments from Sportsnet people, many of them are at a Pitch Talks event tonight:
https://twitter.com/PitchTalks/status/936276644737646592
I’m sure it’s fun for them…
@McIvor “I’m sure it’s fun for them”…
Indeed as I’m sure it’s fun for you to deflect and ignore requests for you to back up your claims!
The only surprise here is that something hasn’t come out earlier than this. I wonder if he can reuse the “wrote a cheque to pay off a bet” excuse again??
I don’t think Zaun will be the only sportsnet/Rogers employee that will take the fall. I’m sure there will be more to come. Not excluding athletes.
LOL. We aren’t seriously all believing this is strictly because all of a sudden some employees spoke to their bosses right? Like, we are smarter than that here on this forum, right?
I can handle the outrage on twitter because those folks are clueless, but with all of us having an interest in sports broadcasting and ownership/stations and all that good stuff, we aren’t just gonna believe the Rogers narrative, right?
PLEASE tell me I am not the only one who sees the true reason behind this and not just the guise of “sexual misconduct” or whatever.
LOL, if this was a serious case of Rogers (or Bell) cleaning up, we’d have snow and static on both Sportsnet and TSN because there would be no host left!
I will say though, that if it took this long for employees to speak to their bosses against him, I applaud them. But based on his behavior in the past, why didn’t management let him go a long time ago?
@Original Mitch
You are not alone. History is replete with examples of “the right decision for the wrong reason”. With this issue now in the forefront across North America, I have no doubts that many executives are strategizing as to how they can use this for reasons other than the actual issue itself. What this says about the priority of addressing harassment (or more importantly the lack thereof) speaks for itself.
Also, like you I cannot believe that this is the only 9or first) case at SN; not to mention the competition.
The first domino…?
So sad not sure who is next but won’t be the last.
I agree with Paul G.in that Greg Zaun was the ONLY broadcaster at SN who dared to criticize Blue Jays before, during and after game broadcasts when players made bonehead plays or team playing badly during losing streaks.
I enjoyed his co-host and unabashed Blue Jays cheerleading avec pom poms Jamie Campbell cringing n unjustified embarrassment whenever
Zaun went on one of his rants.
Having said all this – Zaun’s alleged boorish and inconsiderate treatment of SN female employees over thd years can’t now or ever be tolerated, so he deserved to be booted from SN.
SN will unfortunately put in an unabashed Blues Jays pom pom cheerleader to smile and never say a bad thing about the team to make Campbell as comfy as possible on tv broadcasts. Can u say KEVIN BARKER, married to SN Hazel Mae, will be sitting across from JC in ’18.SN broadcasts.
Telco’s like Rogers that own media companies should now be rethinking their interest in media(total liability), especially when they have a lion share of the market in wireless and Internet. Let’s see Escobar, Pillar and now Zaun adding to the list of PR unfriendliness. Shareholders will weigh the risk verses the rewards of this asset.
@Paul G.
Steve Simmons broke down the Halladay story on Toronto Mike yesterday. He said Bob didn’t include all the info, and thought that there was nothing done wrong by the Jays.
I believe Bob also wrote a recent article complaining that the Jays didn’t draft a certain player despite what a local scout wanted, only to find out through very simple google search that the Jays didn’t have a pick until 15 picks later. That bit was added post publishing.
https://www.canadianbaseballnetwork.com/canadian-baseball-network-articles/elliott-blue-jays-scout-fought-hard-for-astros-stud
I don’t care either way, but Simmons has no reason to defend the Blue Jays, and Elliot was wrong on a different article as well, so take that as you will.
Elliott making a mistake in a different article and Simmons claims are not “confirmation” by any definition.
I can’t help but wonder if Zaun’s behaviour was “well known” for a while then why now is it that he get the hammer dropped? Is Rogers trying to look like the good “corporate citizen” and showing the world that they’ll do it as well? Is this simply a good timing excuse for Rogers to remove a dissenting voice from their broadcasts while virtue signalling to the audience?
By no means am I excusing the behaviour of Zaun, nor am I doubting any of those making the allegations but I am questioning the timing by the higher ups in dealing with this. Seems too much like a bandwagon move to me.
This also makes me wonder if the days of the “due bros” over at TSN are numbered and that the Overdrive guys are going to be forced to clean up their act a bit.
When I watched a Jays game, I enjoyed his analysis. Thought that he provided some very decent insight in his, particularly, unique way.
As for his behaviour, having met a number of professional athletes, a large percentage act exactly the same way. Their athletic prowess has entitled them to special attention since they were in public school. They’re far from the most mature people and they feel they can get away with anything they want. Whether they are married or not – usually to the blonde trophy wife and 3 or 4 kids – I’ve seen them openly come on to women in the most lewd and brazen fashion one could imagine.
Speaks more to our society than it does Mr. Zaun or anyone at Sportsnet.
@Paul
As I stated, I don’t care. Im simply pointing out that he has errored in other articles and someone other then the poster your going after thinks the story was one sided. Just providing information. Do with it as you wish.
@Anthony
I am doing with it as “I wish”…I am not buying it.
If asking someone to back up their claims is “going after them”…guilty as charged!
If your rationale that a mistake in a previous piece is relevant to a different issue, then for the same reason Simmons own version of this should also be cast aside; (Kessel hot dog claim and subsequent throwing of a source and editor under the bus).
In both cases however, this is irrelevant to the issue at hand. While disagreeing with some of his stands, Steve Simmons is and has been a must read for many years.
Now take your own advice and actually “Let me do with this as I wish”.
@hans
I got the name of the person who complained about Zaun to their bosses. The name rhymes with Shmarcus Vroman, if you are wondering why all of a sudden ‘now’ instead of years ago Gregg was fired.
People aren’t seriously thinking that the guy who wanted to be called “The Manalyst” got fired because of his garbage but harmless “old-school, telling it like it is” nonsense instead of workplace harassment claims are they?
@mikeV
If Rogers was serious about this, Zaun would have been fired AGES ago, not suddenly after the team’s star complained about him. His behaviour has been deplorable ever since he got to Toronto and he made no bones about it. Heck, he bragged about it through photos and social media. That DM that he sent for the party invite was surely known among Rogers employees, but they take action just now? uh huh.
Rumours are that Estrada was having an affair with jackie Redmond. When his wife caught him, he broke it off. Then JD started a relationship with her. Before you say “can’t believe rumours”, remember that at this point that’s all there is against Zaun as well.
Is it possible that in addition to a “culture of harassment” in the media/sports world that there is also a culture where women are rewarded for flirting and using their sexuality towards personal gain?
If you abuse or harrass someone, you deserve to be locked up. But there will never be a world where men don’t want to have sex with Moen and women don’t want to have sex with men. What some call harassment, others would call flirting.
Jimmy,
Please explain how two adults having a consensual relationship is in ANYWAY comparable to Zaun’s actions. Also, I note you explicitly target Redmond for criticism, as if Estrada and Donaldson were just innocent men swayed by her feminine wiles. And what exactly did she gain? Do you have ANY proof she was out to gain anything? Or are these just baseless accusations based on misogyny?
You are part of the culture that I’m happy to say the #metoo movement is finally destroying. Good riddance.
People say it’s a culture of harassment, and I’m saying maybe it’s a two way street. So far, only actual story I’ve seen was him sending an email inviting a girl to what allegedly amounted to an orgy. If she said yes, that’s a consensual relationship. If she said no or did not reply and he left it at that, where’s the harassment? Stupid on his part to send the invitation through email, but is it actually criminal?
If it comes out he threatened someone’s job unless they gave him sexual favours, so be it. If what we’re talking about is lewd comments and cat calls coming from a pro athlete, then this isn’t a story.
“If what we’re talking about is lewd comments and cat calls coming from a pro athlete, then this isn’t a story.”
How would you feel if a co-worker of your daughter or wife regularly made lewd comments and sexual harassing remarks to her at work? Would you just tell them it’s a two-way street and they must be doing something to deserve it? I bet you would, actually.
It would have been interesting if the culprit had been one of the Jays star players instead of Zaun. Would Rogers/Sportsnet have terminated the player’s contract? Or is it even possible to terminate a player contract on the basis of such allegations? The Player Association would get involved for sure.
While hopefully most athletes do not pursue sex as much as did Tiger Woods, we would be naive to think that rich young athletes are not the object of advances by as many beautiful young women as they care to handle.
I am not making excuses for Zaun at all but as he retires from the announcing booth I would have to say he was very good as a baseball analyst and not afraid to go boldly where no other Sportsnet personality would go.
Yes, simulcast. It appears that zaun was deemed expendable for the purpose of making an example.
If you work in a strip club, cat calls and the like are accepted behaviour. There is an argument that can be made that the pro sports media environment has been operating along the same lines. Don’t sell sex and then call it harassment when someone makes an offer to buy the product.
But again, I’m speaking with zero knowledge of this particular incident. Just like presumably all of us. I’m fully willing to condemn him if evidence of real transgressions becomes available, but throwing him under the bus as a sexual predator at this point is unjust.
Bob McCown did not add a single word after reading the press release. Not. One. Word. Incredibly gutless, imo.
I don’t expect an up and coming midday host to necessarily take big risks. But when you’re a 40 year vet who has cultivated an image of “I’ll say anything and fear nobody”, this was gutless. You can even talk about why you’re not talking. But silence was outrageous.
Perhaps he doesn’t want to comment until he knows the facts?
There is a complete shit storm brewing right now. I wager that there will be many otherwise innocent people getting caught up in this simply for making public a viewpoint that the pitchfork brandishing mobs find offensive.
Then he could have said that, instead of gutless silence.
But really, he already had one gigantic fact: a major sports figure was let go for inappropriate conduct. McCown can do 14 minutes on remote control batteries, but he can’t say a single word about that? Gutless.
When the Roy Halladay plane went down and nobody knew the facts yet of who was on the plane, Bob still had plenty to say. Because it was breaking news and he’s a sports talk radio host.
Holy cow, just listened to the start of Bob’s show from today and it’s even worse. A stern admonition that the topic is not relevant and he’ll tolerate no calls on the matter.
Leaves little doubt that the issue at Sportsnet is far bigger than Gregg Zaun, and either Bob is incriminated or major executives are.
GaryM – don’t forget that Bob is in the middle of contract negations as well. I’m sure that’s playing into how he’s trying to sidestep the issue as he’s working on keeping his gig at the fan. I’m also sure there was a memo/email after or with the announcement to the sportscasters, opinion makers et all that it’s a topic that is not to be discussed.
In corporate environment like Rogers (which is super extreme in the “corporate culture”) that is usually how things like this go.
MikeV – I don’t doubt the accusations are real. Never have and I can’t unless I see evidence stating otherwise if there is something or not. For me, it was all about the timing since many on this site and others have indicated Zaun’s behaviour has been going on for some time. Why was it not dealt with back then? Why now? Could it be just a case the complaints were filed now instead of when they happened? Perhaps but again, the timing and current environment where it seems EVERY man is being accused or harassment in some way makes it suspect.
OriginalMitch – If that’s actually true then that’s really sad on said player’s part. Not only does it show he’s got a thin skin but it also is setting a bad precedence as now other players know if they don’t like the mean things that commentators say they can complain and get them removed. It also really makes Rogers look bad if they’re using the current climate as a means of covering themselves and make the company look better, even if said accusations are legit.
https://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2017/12/01/sportsnet-women-paint-picture-of-workplace-where-they-were-expected-to-deal-with-gregg-zauns-offensive-comments.html
For all the knuckleheads claiming the complaints against Zaun aren’t real or he’s been fired because he was critical of the team. You’re disgusting and I hope the women in your life free themselves from your presence.
If it seems to you like “EVERY” man is being accused of harassment you have some sort of distorted gender-based persecution complex.
McIvor, from the Star article you posted:
Clear admission that this kind of thing was happening out in the open. Did anyone sit zaun down and tell him to give it a rest? Was he ever written up or otherwise reprimanded for harassment? Or was he instead given free reign until Rogers saw a clear PR opportunity and jumped on the bandwagon. His behaviour was overlooked/ignored for years. He’s a creep, but it seems like like he was in the right industry for that, until recently.
It’s easy to throw stones at a lone target already singled out. Where were these accusers 4 years ago? Is it not as easy to file an anonymous complaint as is it is to become an anonymous source to a reporter?
I think a more appropriate tag for #MeToo would be #PilingOn
Jimmy – also from that article:
Your comment shows that you have zero understanding of the issue. If we have learned anything from the past few months – those of us who have been making an honest attempt to understand sexual harassment, assault and power dynamics, at least – it is that there are myriad reasons that women don’t feel able to come forward with their stories. To ask where these accusers were 4 years ago is to completely miss the point. Where were Weinstein’s accusers 4 years ago? Where were Louis CK’s accusers then? The whole point is that they feared reprisals, professional or otherwise, and went along with whatever BS the men were pulling because the men were in the positions of power.
C’mon.
Throwing zaun under the bus because he is a caricature of sexism, misogyny and harassment won’t change a thing. Rogers getting credit as the good guys for taking this stand won’t change a thing. As bad as Zaun are all the men (and women) who stood by, watched and condoned the behaviour with inaction. Their inaction said that this was not inappropriate but was actually acceptable in this workplace. Zaun is a convenient sacrifice.
Hans, all your ‘contract negotiations’ theory would mean is that Bob has chosen to leverage ass kissing over integrity, experience, and ratings domination. Pretty sad state of affairs for the ‘tough guy in shades’.
But I don’t think that’s what it was. I think either Bob or the executives are deeply implicated and a time bomb is ticking.
Well it’s about time guys who act like pigs are made to atone. My wife got a 2 year severance when the president of a large ad agency wouldn’t leave her alone. Best part was they offered her 8 weeks after 8 years and it took only 10 days to get to the final number. He was quite well known as a pig. Did he get fired? No. That didn’t happen til he ran the agency into the ground.
Anyway to the point. Getting rid of a Zaun is the cause. The symptom is larger and higher up. Management know about these guys. Stories get told. Everyone knows that. So to give Brace, Rogers or any other senior exec a pass is ridiculous. Can’t remember the name but which Sr Rogers exec tweeted the pic of the Zanzibar. No it’s not a huge deal, but symptomatic it is. I really don’t think a lot of women want to put their boss and a strip club in the same sentence. I’m sure there will now be a run on the sports community here. I bet I can name 2-3 guys who will be on the list.
As for Bob not saying anything I’m mixed. He’s not a Rogers spokesperson. He has no professional responsibility to make a statement. Why they had him read it is perplexing. I think it was wrong. That said I am troubled by why he didn’t say something. Was he under orders not to? Maybe. If he wasn’t then it was a big miss. Lastly if he didn’t say something due to any “friendship” issue then he’s culpable. That is why the situation exists in the first place.
Gary M – Very true though I’d be remiss if I didn’t recall when Bob was promising for the week leading up to Shapiro’s first interview on PTS that he would ask the “hard questions” and take him to task on the then early moves he did with the Blue Jays. The interview came and it was nothing more than fluff and softball questions and nothing like the hard hitting that Bob promised. In other words I agree that you are right that there’s more to it but I’ll still add that Bob has balked in times of going against Rogers and it’s brass before.
I also wouldn’t be shocked if it’s Scott Moore that is next on the list given he past Zanzibar (that’s your answer Steve Jones) tweets and the likes. That’s fairly up the food chain in Rogers if my knowledge of the corporate hierarchy is correct.
Hans, that is excellent analysis.
Steve, I don’t understand “He has no professional responsibility to make a statement”. It’s the dominant live cross-Canada sports talk show and it’s the big breaking Canadian sports story. Yet not only does he say nothing, he calls it ‘not relevant’. What. The. Hell.
Blair and Brunt discussed Zaun at top of the Dec. 1, 9 am hr. Brady and Price addressed it in the middle of both the 8 and 9 am Dec 1 hours. Odd that Bob did not. I don’t think it was mentioned on that thing on from 1-4.
Will see if Overdrive tones down the Brandi Love, Brazzers, Bang Bus, strip club talk. TSN 1050 has even run a Jeff O’Neill mention of Brandi Love in a teaser. If they continue that talk off air in more explicit terms, it is the same offensive work environment mentioned about the Sportsnet control room in the Star article.
I see Mike is blaming the Front Office for not signing Otani. I take Mike it thinks Shapiro is responsible for the team not being based on the West Coast? Laughable.
Anyone who has spent any time at Rogers knows what Zaun was fired, and it had nothing to do with player criticism. Saying so is incredibly inappropriate.
Aaaand McCown went into hiding today.
Everyone read the carefully worded Zaun apology? Claiming ignorance of the impact that his actions were having.
Just as I have suggested several times on this blog as a holder of plenty of Rogers stock that Rogers will and should consider the sale of the team, especially now in light of what is going on in entertainment, above I stated that a lot of media assets are now a major liability. There are those that have asked why would Rogers sell the team because of their access to free advertising, Rogers has maxed out on this investment and it is simply time for them to cash out as this investment has yielded a very sizeable profit.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/12/05/rogers-exploring-possible-sale-of-toronto-blue-jays-cfo-says.html
@Big G
Yea why be vertically integrated when you can…not be… and pay more for broadcast rights than the team is worth…
Daniel,
This potential transaction is what you saw over the last couple decades in baseball when large communications conglomerates sold teams that were not core assets to their business to unlock the value of the team that is only a spec of dust on the ledger. This makes perfect sense for Rogers right now especially in this entertainment climate. It simply divorces them from the liability of having to manage potential PR nightmares in players that at the end of the day does really nothing for the empire and it’s shareholders not to mention the team is in transition which could very well last an extended period Of time. Rogers was built on the Strength of it’s wireless and cable communications, today these businesses are still the driving force behind stock price and stability. To be honest Ted bought the team to keep it from leaving Canada as no other buyers stepped up. Time to count the blessings/profits and move on. Rogers will not suffer from the sale of this non core assett. I also do believe that with the recent government legislation on wages which is going to drive up cost of retail therefore not considering this move would be reckless.
With that logic, I guess 37.5% of the Leafs and Raptors are also for sale. (MLSE). Larry becoming majority Leafs owner??
If Rogers sells, most people on here will have noting to bitch about anymore
No it just means that companies are focused more on core assets and less on potential liabilities.
Interesting no fortune 500’s stepped up for the Dodgers or Clippers?????? Biggest market in North America.