An Interview with Dave Shoalts

by mike in boston / @mikeinbostonemail


Good morning sports media fans. With the calendar switching over to November this means that Scott Moore’s reign as head of Sportsnet has come to an official end. Moore was a regular topic of conversation around here over the years, in part because of his very public persona and penchant for being in the limelight, but also in part because he helmed the ship during the Rogers takeover of Hockey Night in Canada. As the ratings suffered, many people lost their jobs. Throughout it was Moore who became the face associated with these struggles.


Dave Shoalts of the Globe & Mail has written a new book called Hockey Fight in Canada that details the process that led to Rogers’ winning bid for Canadian NHL rights. He graciously agreed to talk to me. Here is our conversation.


Q:At a time when sports media columns have all but disappeared what prompted you to pitch a general interest book about the NHL rights deal?


DS: The topic got so much readership when I was writing about it for the Globe so it was obviously a natural topic for a book. That said, I didn’t suggest it. I knew from previous experience how much work goes in to writing a book. A book agent gave me a call and talked me into it. So he deserves the credit.


Q: Why do you think the average sports reader is interested in this topic?


DS: This is a show that has been part of people’s lives every Saturday night. So many Canadians feel an attachment for Ron MacLean and Don Cherry. Calling them members of the family might be too strong but it’s in the ballpark. People are connected to the broadcast through their love of a team or the game of hockey in general. And this has been the case for more than sixty years. So when there’s upheaval in this institution, people notice and people get passionate about it.


Q: Many of the key players behind the NHL rights deal have moved on. Was it difficult to get people to talk about how this all went down?


DS: No, actually. All of the main characters were willing to talk, and to talk on the record. This really makes the job so much easier. All of the accounts rang true with each other, so it made the research manageable. I didn’t have to do too much running around to get to the bottom of things.


Q: Some of the financial details have come out in previous reporting. Were the people with whom you spoke comfortable talking on the record about these matters or did you need to find others to fill in the whole picture?


DS: A lot of the people at Rogers were proud of the numbers since these are unprecedented in Canadian media so they spoke pretty freely about the details. One detail that came as a result of extra digging was that Rogers paid … off the top of my head I think it was one million dollars … over the number that Bell had offered the NHL for the same package. Bell had the original idea, and when Bettman decided he wanted to go with Rogers he basically said “offer me a dollar more”. At that level a dollar means a million, apparently.


And this again was a place where the folks from Rogers were helpful. Both Keith Pelley and John Collins (of the NHL) talked a lot about Quebecor’s involvement. It’s not like it was a big scoop on my part but it was under-reported originally. They committed to something like $125 million a year for the length of the deal. When you add that up it changes the $5.2 billion number significantly. Both said to me that without Quebecor, this deal would never have gotten done. Pelley was able to go to Rogers with the smaller number, and he told me that there was no way they would have said yes to the full amount.


Q: It’s interesting that Rogers comes across as the bad guy when Bell was angling to do the very same thing.


DS: Yeah. TSN lost and it must have been hard for them. And there was no shortage of TSN people who would say they were glad they didn’t have the rights during the first couple of years as Rogers struggled. But they would likely have struggled too since their deal was pretty much the same.


Q: Did TSN have a plan for the scenario in which they were shut out of the rights deal? Do you have a sense of whether they were caught flat-footed?


DS: I think they were pretty confident they had the deal locked up. About a week before Rogers got it details started to leak out about what CBC would retain under a new deal and I’m pretty sure those leaks came from Bell and CBC. So yeah I do think they were caught off guard by Gary’s decision to go across the street. But I will say they seem to have recovered pretty quickly. They may be #2 by the metric of average monthly ratings but they are still making lots of money. Both sides are. TSN bought up stuff like the NFL and Masters and are doing just fine with that.


Q: CBC built the HNIC brand yet they appear to be the biggest loser in all of this. Do you think they were treated fairly in this process?


DS: I do. I think the CBC guys dropped the ball. They were offered chances to stay in the game. They were offered a scaled down version of HNIC by the NHL. And they were offered something similar by Bell, who told them to sit tight and that they would be looked after under a new deal. But CBC got it in their minds that the status quo should prevail in a new deal. It’s shocking to me that they didn’t negotiate a better deal with either Rogers or Bell prior to the eventual negotiation with the NHL. From what I hear the CBC guys wouldn’t even take the call. It made no sense to me, given what they were already facing in terms of cutbacks from the Harper government.


CBC lost half of their ad revenue as a result of this fumble. Not half of their sports ad revenue. Half of the total. Hundreds of people lost their jobs. Some would have lost them anyway, to be sure, but this was all made so much worse than it had to be. All because these guys wouldn’t listen to reason. To compound things, when it was announced Rogers won the package they basically rolled over and let Rogers shove a one-sided deal down their throats. It never occurred to anyone that, hey, we are the ones with the national over the air network. And unlike Bell (with CTV), Rogers doesn’t have channels that cover the whole country. CityTV is in a few cities. So CBC handed it all over, and it just makes you shake your head. And that’s why there are still people over at the CBC who are angry about this whole process.


Q: One of the biggest questions we have debated is how to gauge the success or failure of the deal from Rogers’ perspective. Some people are of the opinion that beating TSN in aggregate annual ratings is enough to justify the deal regardless of profit or opportunity costs. Others think that this was always about cell phones. In your research have you formed an opinion about how the deal is being evaluated internally?


DS: Rogers was of the opinion that there were so many different ways they would make money on this deal. When it comes to ratings one thing to keep in mind is that overall viewership is declining because of the trends with younger viewers. It seems to me that the length of the deal may end up being the saving grace for Rogers. It will give them time to figure it out different ways to monetize the content, whether it’s highlights or whatever. The other thing is they caught a break with the Leafs’ accelerated rebuild. In my research no one has said that things are going badly, for what it’s worth. Everyone is pretty optimistic that the deal will be good in the long run.


Q: After year 2 of the deal we saw a number of job losses and changes, including restoring Ron McLean and jettisoning Strombo. Do you think SN tried too hard to put their own stamp on an institution that was working fine?


DS: Yes, but lots of people at CBC will tell you that there was a perception that the existing HNIC was broken. And Rogers didn’t make changes in a vacuum. They did all kinds of market research and had a team of people going across the country talking to hockey fans. The message they received is that people wanted change; well, they didn’t as it turns out.


Q: Scott Moore has some early quotes where he says that people will eventually get used to the changes. But after 2 years they pulled the plug. Do you think they gave the Strombo experiment enough time to take root?


DS: You could argue they didn’t wait long enough but they were getting snowed under and I can see why they acted when they did. I will always wonder though how much of that dissatisfaction from viewers was genuine or just a reflection of the fact that all the Canadian teams were lousy. It’s an interesting thing to consider whether people would have come to like Strombo and the fake ice floors once their own team started playing better and there was more good news. But you can’t argue with the reaction when they essentially rolled the show back to what it was before. The audience was pretty happy with that.


Q: Prior to the deal Bettman sometimes joked and sometimes griped about the perception that he has a hostile relation with Canadian hockey media. Do you think that played any role in deciding to go with Rogers?


DS: What Rogers did that got Gary’s eye was to emphasize players in their coverage. That was a long standing complaint that the NHL had with the CBC; they emphasized the broadcasters too much with all the panel shows, Ron and Don, etc. They wanted more features on the players. Rogers knew enough to pitch a different approach. And this would have mostly been Scott Moore since he had a relationship with Bettman from his days at CBC sports. Rogers served up what Gary wanted to hear and I think that’s what won the day for them.


Q: After securing the deal Scott Moore spoke about being partners with the league, and a new editorial mandate to celebrate the game rather than talk about labour issues or the salary cap. Do you think the journalistic credibility of Sportsnet suffered under Moore’s tenure?


DS: The average fan doesn’t care about that kind of thing. But within the journalism community, yes. It has become a big issue in our business. For example, it has become clear that Sportsnet is just not going to go after the NHL on concussions and CTE while they have this rights deal. But notice that it’s also made a big difference over at TSN. I don’t think they would be nearly as aggressive on those same stories if they had a piece of the national deal with the NHL. It works both ways.


Q: One of my main complaints about Moore’s statements is that he hasn’t talked enough about enacting policies that allow the great journalists Sportsnet employs to do their jobs to the fullest extent, free from influence from the business side. But perhaps it’s unreasonable to expect networks to hold the same standards as newspapers?


DS: So much of this stuff goes unsaid, and for a good reason. You’d have to be a bit thick to work at a network and not understand that the business relationship with the league is important given how much money is tied up in those deals. One clear line, again not that anyone ever says it directly, is that on the game broadcast you’re not going to be throwing rocks at your partner. That’s just the way it is. Of course the same thing is obvious with the Jays and Sportsnet.


Unfortunately for readers and viewers who are interested in honest coverage of the team that’s a vanishing thing. That’s an industry problem as independent media have fewer resources. So more coverage is being done in-house. I’ll be damned if I have a solution though.


Q: Is there any example of an outlet that has managed to walk this line — the one between business interests and journalistic interests — well?


DS: I think the CBC did. But at the end of the day all it did was to enrage Gary. If you’re Sportsnet the last thing you want is angry calls and emails from the league.


Q: As a journalist do you rely on your section editor to shield you from blowback when you write something controversial?


DS: Absolutely. And if you’re at a place that has a business relationship with the people you’re covering that’s not something you can count on. Of course everyone who works at a network will tell you that no one has ever told them what they can and can’t write or how to shape their coverage. As I said, no one ever needs to say that because everyone can tell which way the wind is blowing. And not too many people are going to take the risk of angering their bosses. I’m not trying to be holier than anyone. I would also think twice under those conditions.


Q: Both Bell and Rogers make lots of money from their investment in sports media. Both have similar subscriber numbers and are able to command healthy fees for carriage. Other than professional pride by CEOs, do you think there is a lot at stake in the ratings battle between the two?


DS: I don’t know, but I think it’s mostly about bragging rights. The duelling press releases tell you that. Obviously the bosses care a lot. But I don’t think it makes much of a difference to anyone else.


Q: When Tim Leiweke was head of MLSE he made headlines all the time. The current person is basically invisible. Scott Moore was a very visible character during his time as president of Sportsnet while his counterpart at TSN is the opposite. Do you have an opinion on which is the better approach for Moore’s replacement?


DS: I would think that for longevity’s sake it’s better to remain anonymous. And most of these guys choose that option. Pelley would make the occasional appearance on McCown’s show, but was pretty below the radar. Certainly when you’re involved with something controversial like the NHL rights deal and changing HNIC you’re going to be a target. But, Moore’s departure doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the ratings. There’s no reason to think it wasn’t his idea to leave at this point in time. He had a high profile send off from the network. Broadcast companies don’t do that if they are pushing you out the door.


Q: Moore oversaw a few controversial personnel decisions. He’s the guy who approved the hiring of Dean Blundell. He’s also the guy who had to fire Gregg Zaun after allegations of harassment in the workplace by female co-workers. How do you see his legacy, all things considered?


DS: In the end everything bad will be overshadowed by the fact that Moore got Sportsnet to be equal and then better than TSN. That’s the business and that’s what ultimately matters to these people. He can leave with his head held high because of that. But, he certainly has his detractors. A lot of people lost their jobs due the ratings disappointment in the first few years. That’s also part of his legacy. But they did reach their goal in being number one.


Q: What should the priority be for whoever takes over from Moore?


DS: Find those alternative revenue streams. That’s what will save the deal in the end. It’s the only thing that really matters.


Q: Do you think there’s any chance Rogers hires someone outside the box of existing Canadian media to replace Moore? For example, someone from ESPN?


DS: I don’t know Rick Brace well but he’s a fairly conventional executive. I wouldn’t expect someone out of left field. But hey: isn’t it time a woman ran a sports network?



Thanks to Dave for taking the time. If you want to follow his rock star book tour, he has also made stops on the CBC and on Toronto Mike.


I have some thoughts but I’ll give this a day to breathe and post a follow up later.



thanks for reading and commenting,

until next time …

mike (not really in boston)

photo credit: Douglas & McIntyre/The Globe & Mail
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November 3, 2018 11:23 am

Thanks for a great interview, I also heard on Toronto Mike the other day. Dave came across on both as a very intelligent sports journalist and has a very good understanding on this topic .
I’m just at the half way point of his new book can’t wait to finish the book. I personally was I the belief that at the end of the day things would have worked out well for Rogers after the rocky start. Bell and CBC blew there opportunity underestimating Betmen and the NHL for the simple fact or the right of entitlement.

Paul G.
Paul G.
November 3, 2018 4:44 pm

Great interview. Always enjoy this type of a post.

His work sadly confirms what too many of us already know about the CBC: it’s a Crown Corporation led my executives with no real world corporate skills!

Sam Gamble
Sam Gamble
November 4, 2018 8:54 am

Yes, good interview.

Setting aside whether this thing is making money, it will be very interesting to see how Rogers positions itself as the contract renews in 7(?) years. McKenzie will be gone at TSN, others could be as well. Could Sportsnet, by that point, position itself as a much more respectable deliverer of hockey broadcasts by then? Also, with technological advances will it matter as much who the broadcasters are?

Gary M
Gary M
November 4, 2018 2:47 pm

Funny to think that the success or failure of the deal really depends on things Rogers can’t control. The fate of the economy and the fate of the Canadian teams.

November 5, 2018 12:56 pm

MIB, this is a fantastic interview, in terms of both the questions asked and the answers given. Dave Shoalts is always an interesting read, and you drew out some really thought-provoking commentary from Dave. Well done!

What really stood out to me is the appalling if not downright frightening revelation that actions (or lack thereof) by the CBC led to the loss of HALF of their ad revenue. Even without a specific figure attached to it (we can check Dave’s book, but I’m almost afraid to), think about that for a moment. Imagine losing 50% of revenue for a given operation. How would one respond? Cut back services, lay off staff, increase costs to consumers (in this case, taxpayers). It’s literally killing the goose that laid the golden eggs. And yet, this may be less disturbing than the attitude of the executives that the status quo would and should prevail, in the face of all the rapid change that is currently occurring in media and entertainment, let alone elsewhere in society.

As a set of actions that would ultimately impact the CBC, and by extension, its viewing and funding public, I’m surprised that this hasn’t come to light in a more prominent fashion. Not via the CBC, of course, but via alternate media sources. Good for Dave for bringing this to our attention.

November 5, 2018 1:38 pm

I had heard TVA was involved but the book makes it clear just how critical they were in finalizing the deal. I had never heard of Cope’s post-deal end run to try and get the deal back by lobbying NHL Governors. I had heard about some Bell – Rogers dust ups in the MLSE boardroom and expected to hear more detail about that. The Nadir face to face meeting would not have cemented the deal had they not made the pitch about making the broadcasts more about the players which was music to Gery’s ears.

Noticeable in the first HNIC broadcast with someone in control  other than Moore – they did a long star player montage which I read as if someone was saying to Gary ‘No need to worry…’

Overdrive says tectonic plates will shift when they make an announcement this Wednesday. If it truly is big it has to be a switch to FM or simulcast with FM and/or Sirus. With all the money Bell saved by not spending on a NHL deal, you’d think they’d make a serious attempt to kick Sportsnet’s ass at radio – and signal strength seems like an easy one: it’s just money. 

November 5, 2018 4:11 pm

Mike Richards also says he has a big announcement on Thursday. Although he kind of oversold his last big announcement (which i think was basically just that he started a podcast), so it might not be a real earth shaker.

Gary M
Gary M
November 7, 2018 3:28 pm

Marcus, I think managing a situation like that is a lot harder than it looks from a distance. The net income of all TV broadcast networks is on a collision course with zero. Sometimes you’ll play tough and it won’t work, sometimes you’ll be co-operative and it won’t work. Most things won’t work, because you’re holding no cards.

David makes “over the air” network sound important but we know it’s not. Major events run on cable nowadays and few viewers make a distinction.

November 8, 2018 8:16 am

Thought I had good radar for sarcasm. Apparently not. Overdrive was going on and on about a big announcement Wednesday that I thought it was true. But it was just announcing some stupid fing contest. Apologies. 

November 8, 2018 2:54 pm

@Gary M, good points, and I would agree. It’s definitely not an easy situation to navigate, and in a lot of ways, CBC did not have a position of strength to bargain from. I just don’t like the fact that they were passive about it, regardless of the outcome.

The one thing that CBC did have was the legacy of the Hockey Night in Canada brand, and that there would be a small portion of viewers (the older ones who still see the network and the brand as intertwined) who would still watch broadcasts the traditional way. CBC has both the mandate and technology to cover areas where private networks would be less concerned. Though I have no doubt that they would lose some of the revenue in a new agreement with the NHL, they could have retained that part of the market that would still go to the CBC for coverage, and at least retain that revenue throughout its slow dwindling, rather than be cut off cold turkey. Not saying it would have been guaranteed to work out that way, but at least a possibility.

Toronto Mike
November 9, 2018 8:14 am

For those curious about the Mike Richards announcement, he made it on my show yesterday.

November 9, 2018 2:55 pm

Toronto Mike,

Really enjoyed the show. Great job as always. Really excited to hear that Mike Richards and David Bastl will be back on morning radio on Suaga 960.

I have not enjoyed morning radio for the last 3 years. Landsberg is a non starter for me, and Starting line up is old and dull. Happy to have some fun back in the mornings. A good alternative for people who enjoy a laugh on the ride into work.

Mike S
Mike S
November 9, 2018 4:38 pm

Friedman is on the PTS roundtable today………he is almost never on the roundtable……I wish he was on more often

Shannon is on the PTS roundtable today………he is almost always on the roundtable………I wish he was on less often

November 11, 2018 12:32 pm

Never heard of 960 before until Richards mentioned it in his announcement on Toronto Mike last week. . I was around QEW and Trafalgar and got a signal that was about as good as 1050’s. I guess Richards will shake 960 up a bit. Will be interesting to have a third AM sports show in this market with a personality that has an established AM sports radio record (though I personally couldn’t stand his 1050 show, it was successful). 590 and 1050 just endlessly run through the same ‘Insiders’ over and over. Now that Richards isn’t beholden to a fixed roster, I’ll be interested to see what kind of guest lineup he has. Toronto Mike’s pod is a good listen as Richards rips 1050 quite thoroughly. 

Paul G.
Paul G.
November 11, 2018 2:28 pm

They have hired an eclectic group to fill the schedule. Unfortunately with only a 2000 watt daytime signal, the audience is limited.

November 14, 2018 9:17 pm

For those of you drooling for some hot gambling tips, be sure to check out Hayes’ twenty second Podcast ‘Host of OverDrive Bryan Hayes served up his Pro-Line Best Bets to get you way into the game.’ He speed reads it. Great spot. Play at half speed to drag itn out to a forty second Podcast. 

November 16, 2018 4:24 pm

Jeff Blair playing with his cellphone while taking listener’s calls is unprofessional and disrespectful to the callers.

Paul G.
Paul G.
November 19, 2018 4:12 pm

Another week of mediocre co-hosts on PTS.

Bob just announced that Vendetta will fill the first hour this week and Shannon will take the 5-7 slot. I don’t know why Brunt is away again.

November 20, 2018 6:49 pm

Vendetta – Wow what is happening at PTS? That name dropping ego maniac is definite non starter for – The only person who can make me turn off/dial out a station quicker is Wilner –

November 21, 2018 8:17 pm

RE PTS – Even though I don’t enjoy Vendetta or Shannon as cohosts at all, I feel like I can’t really complain about them being on this week, as the recent Brunt/Deitsch alternating co host thing they’ve been doing is such a massive upgrade on how things were for years on that show (paging Ken Reid).

Apologies if Ive mentioned this before – but out of all the younger, up and coming types on The Fan, I don’t get how they gave JD Bunkis that afternoon slot. I think Ben Ennis is actually pretty strong but (in my opinion) Bunkis sounds like he needs more evening/weekend air time before he’s ready for a show right before McCown. Ashley Docking could have been a good choice to pair with Ben, and break up the all white guy thing they have going on.

November 25, 2018 7:57 am

Burke in a baby blue Hockey Night In Canada blazer: hell has frozen over. 

Bob Canuck
Bob Canuck
November 25, 2018 1:02 pm

On Twitter, Wyatt Arndt said “Burkie looks like a pharmacist demanding to know why you need birth control”.
comment image:large

Chance Vought
Chance Vought
November 25, 2018 7:46 pm

Highly regard this thread. Sadly, it’s all but guaranteed the hockey reporters will ignore it. Can’t have anything that makes our great game look bad, eh?

December 2, 2018 10:47 am

Poscast descriptions continue to confound me. Going forward, perhaps they should just attach dates to Pods and that’s it. Case in point: Nov. 26 AM 650 ‘The Program’ “Andrew Brandt NFL Analyst 07:00:00 – Stephen Brunt Sportsnet 50:00:00 – Nick Kypreos 100:00:00.”

Kypreos is on from the four minute, fifteen second mark to the twenty minute, fifty second mark. And no Brunt, no Brandt. Why bother??

Loved Shoalts’ book. Love his mug, but have been staring at it for a month. Time for a new post!

Mike S
Mike S
December 4, 2018 7:47 pm


Your opinion of Bunkis probably wouldn’t have improved if you had heard him insult a guest a couple of weeks ago………..Marc Spears (ESPN) was the guest……….Bunkis didn’t like his tone of voice or what he said so after the conversation was over he said that Spears was fat and “could stand to lose more than a few pounds”

Bunkis also proclaimed that “we will never have that guy on this show again…….he is banned”

I find that somewhat amusing because the ban is probably not necessary…………my guess is that if Spears ever found out what was said about him he would never agree to appear on the show again anyway

Mike V
Mike V
December 5, 2018 5:58 am

An American personality banned from the lowest rated show (FANs lowest rated show ever?) on a Toronto station by the host everyone would mistake for the intern. How will Spears ever recover from such a devastating blow. 

But speaking of Bunkis, has anyone found out what the deal is with him? He keeps being promoted despite showing zero merit for them and should’ve been turfed in the Walker move. Is it nepotism or something else? 

Bingo Bango Bongo
Bingo Bango Bongo
December 5, 2018 4:22 pm

Bunkis isn’t worth writing about, let alone listening to. His “hot takes” are painful to listen to. I’m no fan of Blair but he’s seen a lot, and written a lot. I may disagree with him but I know his is an intelligent take. Bunkis comes across like a loudmouth punk

Mike S
Mike S
December 7, 2018 5:02 pm

It’s finally over………John Shannon’s streak of 12 consecutive Friday PTS roundtable appearances has mercifully come to an end……….today it is McCown, Brunt, Brad Fay, and Chris Johnston

December 8, 2018 8:13 am

Good Show’s Podcast description: “ Marc Spears, Senior NBA Writer for ESPN, gives his thoughts on the Warriors drama surrounding Kevin Durant and Draymond Green, and discusses his recent comments about Andrew Wiggins and the toughness of Canadian players (41:05)” is at 53:55. Why bother. 

Paul G.
Paul G.
December 8, 2018 1:37 pm

Indeed and it was a pleasure to listen to the panelists’ comments minus the usual interruptions and condescending attitudes; those two contribute.

December 10, 2018 12:32 am

I wonder if part of why the Fan seems to be punting a bit on afternoons (Good Show MUST cost a lot less than Tim & Sid did) is that they’re spending a lot more on podcasts? 31 Thoughts, Swing and a Belt and The Lede all seem like higher end podcast productions (they’re very good too, I would say).

Maybe that’s the future of sports radio. Less invested in over the air talk daily talk shows, and more spent on podcasts.

Paul G.
Paul G.
December 10, 2018 10:48 am

When I said “those two” I was referring to Vendetta (with Shannon).

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